Impact of continental drift on GPS accuracy

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David

We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? If not, as years go by I
would think that the same GPS coordinate does not locate the same
place on earth.E.g : if my house doorstep is N 50°23.000 E 4°50.000,
after a few years it could have become N 50°23.002 E 4°50.003, because
of continental drift ?

Thanks for your comments.
David.
 
David said:
We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? If not, as years go by I
would think that the same GPS coordinate does not locate the same
place on earth.E.g : if my house doorstep is N 50°23.000 E 4°50.000,
after a few years it could have become N 50°23.002 E 4°50.003, because
of continental drift ?

Thanks for your comments.
David.
Click to expand...

I guess that's a mapping issue rather than a GPS issue. The satellites still
report the correct coordinates, it just the land mass has moved.

I think....

cheers

simon
 
Simon Coupland said:
We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? [...]
Click to expand...

I guess that's a mapping issue rather than a GPS issue. The
satellites still report the correct coordinates, it just the land
mass has moved.

I think....
Click to expand...

Your thought is right. GPS always gives absolute position, while maps
get outdated :)


Wastl
 
David said:
We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? If not, as years go by I
would think that the same GPS coordinate does not locate the same
place on earth.E.g : if my house doorstep is N 50°23.000 E 4°50.000,
after a few years it could have become N 50°23.002 E 4°50.003, because
of continental drift ?

Thanks for your comments.
David.
Click to expand...

As the continents drift, they drag the coordinate grid(s) along with them,
wrinkling the datums. One of the reasons for researching the driving
mechanism of plate tectonix, is to shut the goddamn thing down so we don't
have to waste money on datum corrections every 50 years or so, and
protecting land values.
 
We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? If not, as years go by I
would think that the same GPS coordinate does not locate the same
place on earth.E.g : if my house doorstep is N 50°23.000 E 4°50.000,
after a few years it could have become N 50°23.002 E 4°50.003, because
of continental drift ?

Thanks for your comments.
David.
Click to expand...

As far as is known (military you know) GPS-WGS is connected to the whole
globe. Astronomically. So because of plate tectonics all landmasses move with
respect to this coordinate system. Movements are mostly a few mm.to cm. a
year.
Should your handheld GPSr be able to get absolute positions within a meter
then, yes in about 50 years from now the difference would become measurable.
Now the first handheld GPSr's become available (if you have a lot of money to
spend) that manage to give absolute position within a few dm.
But then you really get into trouble. Because of tidal movements you will see
your GPSr going up and down. The crust also moves up and down just like the
water. And atomic clocks are so precise and stable that you also get an
east-west displacement because the earth does not turn every day the same
amount slower.

That surveyers with GPS manage to get coordinates up to a cm good is because
they measure relative. They get bearing and distance to a reference station.

And what they do with the continental drift?
Here in Europe we made ETRF/S (European Terrestrial Reference Frame/System).
Those coordinates are fixed (with help of many continuous GPS reference
Stations) onto the European Plate.
And we measure the movement of this frame against the ITRF (International
etc.) every year. So within Europe we have no problem; surveyers keep stable
coordinates. And beside: official recognized surveyer work depends on law and
in most countries they have to work in the local grid.

Piet
 
David said:
We all heard of the continental drift phenomenon. I understand the 5
continents are moving a few meters/feet per year. Does the GPS
satelite system have a correction algorithm ? If not, as years go by I
would think that the same GPS coordinate does not locate the same
place on earth.E.g : if my house doorstep is N 50°23.000 E 4°50.000,
after a few years it could have become N 50°23.002 E 4°50.003, because
of continental drift ?
Click to expand...

Quite a good question. Basically the GPS network has its own reference
system... the continents move slowly in that, as it is fixed to the average
earth, so you are right your doorstep drifts... :-) Hence, for high accuracy
work, another reference system must be used that is fixed to the continent.
This requires a correction which depends on time.

I consider this http://www.gps.gov.uk/guidecontents.asp website to give an
excellent explanation of this subject and on how coordinate systems work...
in case you are really interested:-) (if I remember well you need to sign
in, i.e. set up a free profile)

Greetz,

Derob
 
As the continents drift, they drag the coordinate grid(s) along with
them, wrinkling the datums. One of the reasons for researching the
driving mechanism of plate tectonix, is to shut the goddamn thing
down so we don't have to waste money on datum corrections every 50
years or so, and protecting land values.
Click to expand...
ROFLMAO!
 
BillC said:
As the continents drift, they drag the coordinate grid(s) along with them,
wrinkling the datums. One of the reasons for researching the driving
mechanism of plate tectonix, is to shut the goddamn thing down so we don't
have to waste money on datum corrections every 50 years or so, and
protecting land values.
Click to expand...

Real estate agents _hate_ this because all that land is changing hands
and nobody is making a commission.
 
So within Europe we have no problem; surveyers keep stable
Except of course that here in the UK we like to be part of Europe but at the
same time slightly different. The British mainland is steaming away from
continental Europe at a few centimetres per decade (I forget the precise
figure).

Currently the British National Grid is nailed to trig points on the ground
so it's moving with us. If I understand correctly, there are currently
moves by the Ordnance Survey to adopt continental standards which means our
grid will start to move with respect to our land mass.

OK, the WGS coordinate system does not respect land mass movement but I
presume it has to be fixed to _some_ reference point on the ground. As one
of the last hangouts (presumably) of the empire, we Brits still claim to
"own" the prime meridian. Is zero degrees still that line engraved on the
floor of the Royal Observatory at Greenwich or is it some other, more
absolute, standard? If the former, then we must be dragging WGS84 with us
as we sail off into the Atlantic.

A few years back, they excavated under the Beachy Head Lighthouse, put it on
rollers, and wheeled it a few metres away from the crumbling cliff edge.
Perhaps we should be considering doing something similar with the Royal
Observatory so that it can stay still whilst the land beneath it moves
around.

Keith
 
x-no-archive: yes
As one
of the last hangouts (presumably) of the empire, we Brits still claim to
"own" the prime meridian. Is zero degrees still that line engraved on the
floor of the Royal Observatory at Greenwich or is it some other, more
absolute, standard?
Click to expand...

You may want to re-read the history a bit more carefully. The Prime
Meridian was never "our own" and had nothing to do with the Empire.

It was agreed to by an international conference.

The fact that the prototype of the metre was stored in some basement in
Paris did not make it a French measure, either.
A few years back, they excavated under the Beachy Head Lighthouse, put it on
rollers, and wheeled it a few metres away from the crumbling cliff edge.
Perhaps we should be considering doing something similar with the Royal
Observatory so that it can stay still whilst the land beneath it moves
around.
Click to expand...

Don't quote me on this one, but according to some accounts I've read, the
Royal Observatory is not exactly on the Prime Meridian, either. The claim
was that the zero meridian was improperly fixed due to errors and primitive
instruments.

Same as the US-Canadian border on the West Coast is not exactly on the 49th
parallel as fixed by a treaty. The error there is about 200m and can't be
blamed on any continental drift.
 
x-no-archive: yes


You may want to re-read the history a bit more carefully. The Prime
Meridian was never "our own" and had nothing to do with the Empire.

It was agreed to by an international conference.

The fact that the prototype of the metre was stored in some basement in
Paris did not make it a French measure, either.


Don't quote me on this one, but according to some accounts I've read, the
Royal Observatory is not exactly on the Prime Meridian, either. The claim
was that the zero meridian was improperly fixed due to errors and primitive
instruments.

Same as the US-Canadian border on the West Coast is not exactly on the 49th
parallel as fixed by a treaty. The error there is about 200m and can't be
blamed on any continental drift.
Click to expand...

In the document History of the Prime Meridian -Past and Present by Jeremy Paul
http://gpsinformation.net/main/greenwich.htm
you can read (and I quote):
"Even today, it can be confusing as there are four Meridians all passing
through the Old Royal Observatory.
The earliest is Flamsteed's, named after the first Astronomer Royal, which
was established in 1675. In 1725, Edmund Halley, the second Astronomer Royal
established a second Meridian.
The third was defined by another Astronomer Royal, James Bradley, in the mid
18th century, and is still used as the basis for map-making in Britain today.
The fourth Meridian was established in 1851 by yet another Astronomer Royal,
Sir George Airy, who set up new measuring equipment in a room alongside
Bradley's original equipment. It is the positioning of this neighbouring
equipment, just 5.79 metres (19ft) away, which eventually became the basis for
international time. "

Piet
 
Keith Sheppard wrote inter alia...
OK, the WGS coordinate system does not respect land mass movement but I
presume it has to be fixed to _some_ reference point on the ground.
Click to expand...

No - it's not fixed to any single reference point. The International
Reference Meridian and Pole and, hence, the WGS84 (ie GPS) datum is defined
to be stationary with resect to the average of all global motions. This
means that the WGS84 latitudes and longitudes will drift to a greater or
lesser extent at any given location. For example the drift is about 2.5cm
per year in a north-easterly direction in the UK. Elsewhere on the globe
drift can be very much greater eg Australia and Hawaii are moving at up to
10 cm per year.

I'm not totally sure of the rest of my facts, but I believe that the
practical realization of the WGS84 datum is based upon the International
Terrestrial Reference Frame as defined in the year 2000. (The definition of
ITRF2000 contains positions, velocities and estimated positional errors of
all the reference stations so that the reference frame can be corrected to
any other time.)

David
 
You may want to re-read the history a bit more carefully. The Prime
There was a certain amount of tongue in cheek throughout my posting, but I
take your point :)

I would point out, though, that whether or not it was agreed by an
international converence _what_ they agreed upon was still Greenwich. I
presume the reason for this was in order not to change the "legacy systems".
In other words, existing maps of the day presumably measured longitude from
Greenwich. Whether or not there were other systems, the one based upon a
reference point in Britain was deemed to be the most appropriate choice.

Maybe it's OTT to say we "own" the prime meridian but I would wager that had
there not been a history of British empire and exploration leading to some
sort of de-facto standard, the modern prime meridian would not run through
Greenwich. I'd guess it would probably be somewhere in Portugal or Spain.

Keith
 
Not a valid question considering his GPS is at best 3m accuracy and
continental drift is 0.03m per year at best.

You might detect that your house has moved relative to the satellite
coordinates after a 100 years or so...if the same satellites are still up
there that is...
 
x-no-archive: yes
Keith Sheppard said:
I would point out, though, that whether or not it was agreed by an
international converence _what_ they agreed upon was still Greenwich. I
presume the reason for this was in order not to change the "legacy systems".
Click to expand...

They had to agree on something, and Greenwich happened to be "it".
In other words, existing maps of the day presumably measured longitude from
Greenwich. Whether or not there were other systems, the one based upon a
reference point in Britain was deemed to be the most appropriate choice.
Click to expand...

Wrong. English maps were referenced to the Greenwich meridian. Scottish
and Welsh weren't. Neither were anybody else's. That was the entire point
of the various scientific international societies getting to gehter to
agree on a common meridian.
Maybe it's OTT to say we "own" the prime meridian
Click to expand...

Actually it is bordering on being American.
It almost smacks of the Soviet claim to have the tallest midgets in the
world.

It's time for the British to realize that the sun has already set ...
 
Keith Sheppard said:
Except of course that here in the UK we like to be part of Europe but at
the
same time slightly different. The British mainland is steaming away from
continental Europe at a few centimetres per decade (I forget the precise
figure).

Currently the British National Grid is nailed to trig points on the ground
so it's moving with us. If I understand correctly, there are currently
moves by the Ordnance Survey to adopt continental standards which means
our
grid will start to move with respect to our land mass.

OK, the WGS coordinate system does not respect land mass movement but I
presume it has to be fixed to _some_ reference point on the ground.
Click to expand...

If you're refering to WGS 84, that's a datum, not a coord system. Unlike
other datums, WGS has its reference point within the earth, versus being
some point on the surface.

As one
 
It's time for the British to realize that the sun has already set ...

There are two national pastimes here - talking about the weather and talking
about some mythical olden days when Britain was "Great Britain". But you're
talking to the wrong person here. I consider myself a European and my
references to the "grand old days of empire" should, at best, be considered
poking fun.

I was particularly amused by Ricky Gervais' comment to an American audience
at a recent awards ceremony:

"I'm from Britain. You know. We used to run the world before you guys took
over."

Regards
Keith
 
If you're refering to WGS 84, that's a datum, not a coord system.
Understood and apologies for being a bit sloppy in my terminology.

What I actually meant was degrees of latitude/longitude, in the WGS84 datum,
measured from the equator/Greenwich respectively - but that's a bit of a
mouthfull. By the same token, my "Hoover" is actually made by Electrolux ;)

Keith
 

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