Bush to consider shutting down GPS in extreme emergency

[Fred]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...0041215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/positioning_satellites

Partial extract:

" Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union (news - web sites) is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo. "

 

[Sam Wormley]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...0041215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/positioning_satellites

Partial extract:

" Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union (news - web sites) is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo. "

Keep your Map, Compass and Altimeter skills up to date.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Partial extract:

" Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union (news - web sites) is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo. "

Will he be shutting down the electrical grid, too? After all, electricity can be extremely useful to terrorists.

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh? AFAIK it's only to be used as a navigational aid, commercial and private airplanes still are required to have other means of navigation on board...

Juergen Nieveler

 

[JGS (archive)]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh? AFAIK it's only to be used as a navigational aid, commercial and private airplanes still are required to have other means of navigation on board...

Juergen Nieveler

Shutting down the non military use of GPS signals in a national emergency makes sense to me and I support it.

Just another example of why one should always carry another means of navigation when it is of vital importance. When I am hunting deep in the woods, I still carry a Silva compass and a paper printout of the area I am hunting in. On my boat, I have two fixed mounted high quality compasses and know how to find my way back home the "hard way". I would never let my life depend on a single electronic navigational device. They can and will fail at some point. Every electronic device has some mean time between failures.

I seem to remember that it was always reserved within the federal plans to disable the GPS signals for non military use in the event of a national emergency. I seem to remember that was clearly stated when SA was turned off under the Clinton administration. Does not surprise me at all. I am more than happy to make the trade for the unlikely chance that it will be disrupted in a national emergency versus having the SA reinstated.

Besides, if we had such a national emergency that required shutting off the GPS signals, I would find myself glued to a TV set rather than out hunting or fishing.

I just pray such an emergency never comes about. In that event, I think we would have bigger problems than me finding my way back to my car or home port.

Regards
JGS

 

[Stan Gosnell]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh? AFAIK it's only to be used as a navigational aid, commercial and private airplanes still are required to have other means of navigation on board...

Many airports have *only* GPS approaches. The FAA has been advocating GPS as sole means of navigation, but although this hasn't happened, if the GPS system were to be disabled the result would be chaos in the US aviation system. Imagine the hundreds of supertankers in US waters daily, which now rely almost exclusively on GPS, being deprived of navigation capability. Can you say oil spill? Cutting off the GPS system is simply not possible, and Bush is stupid to even suggest it. He suffers, as always, from acute CDD, as do most of his advisors.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Huh? AFAIK it's only to be used as a navigational aid, commercial and private airplanes still are required to have other means of navigation on board...

Being required to have other means of navigation on board doesn't mean that the usual means of navigation are not vital. Many two-engine planes can fly on one engine, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to shut down one engine.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Shutting down the non military use of GPS signals in a national emergency makes sense to me and I support it.

Shutting down non-military use of GPS _IS_ a national emergency in itself. It's like shutting off electricity.

At some point the cure is worse than the disease.

Just another example of why one should always carry another means of navigation when it is of vital importance. When I am hunting deep in the woods, I still carry a Silva compass and a paper printout of the area I am hunting in. On my boat, I have two fixed mounted high quality compasses and know how to find my way back home the "hard way". I would never let my life depend on a single electronic navigational device. They can and will fail at some point. Every electronic device has some mean time between failures.

This isn't about failures; it's about deliberate sabotage.

I seem to remember that it was always reserved within the federal plans to disable the GPS signals for non military use in the event of a national emergency. I seem to remember that was clearly stated when SA was turned off under the Clinton administration. Does not surprise me at all. I am more than happy to make the trade for the unlikely chance that it will be disrupted in a national emergency versus having the SA reinstated.

Neither is really acceptable.

Besides, if we had such a national emergency that required shutting off the GPS signals, I would find myself glued to a TV set rather than out hunting or fishing.

In a national emergency, electricity needs to be turned off. Terrorists could use electricity to carry out their plans.

 

[Hans Fleischmann]

Many airports have *only* GPS approaches. The FAA has been advocating GPS as sole means of navigation, but although this hasn't happened, if the GPS system were to be disabled the result would be chaos in the US aviation system. Imagine the hundreds of supertankers in US waters daily, which now rely almost exclusively on GPS, being deprived of navigation capability. Can you say oil spill? Cutting off the GPS system is simply not possible, and Bush is stupid to even suggest it. He suffers, as always, from acute CDD, as do most of his advisors.

That's BS. All vehicles, commercial and military, ships as well as aircrafts and roadvehicles, must have alternate ways of navigation to GPS. That will be ILS and VOR for aircrafts and seamaps and compass on sea. No airport will use GPS for final approach because it's not accurate enough. The FAA will never advocate any sole mean of navigation. Supertankers do not exclusively (not even close) rely on GPS.

 

[Sam Wormley]

Fred writes:

Will he be shutting down the electrical grid, too? After all, electricity can be extremely useful to terrorists.

And the interstate highway system--closing the highways that will slow those terrorists down!

 

[Fred]

Sorry, you are too late with your idea. He had already implemented it and forced us back to the Dark Ages! (Blue State voter)

 

[JetCaptain]

Many airports have *only* GPS approaches. The FAA has been advocating GPS as sole means of navigation, but although this hasn't happened, if the GPS system were to be disabled the result would be chaos in the US aviation system. Imagine the hundreds of supertankers in US waters daily, which now rely almost exclusively on GPS, being deprived of navigation capability. Can you say oil spill? Cutting off the GPS system is simply not possible, and Bush is stupid to even suggest it. He suffers, as always, from acute CDD, as do most of his advisors.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Did you forget all commercial and private airline traffic was shut down after 9/11. We sure as hell didn't need GPS on the ground and we don't rely solely on it when in flight. God, I hope you don't think I would get lost flying from Pittsburgh to Denver if I didn't have GPS. We are a lot better equipped than that.

And you're wrong on the tankers, they do not rely solely on GPS. There will be no oil spills. You're speaking out of a total lack of knowledge.

This whole topic is blown way out of proportion. Compared to a nuclear device being set off in a highly populated area (say Manhattan), that would devastate this country far more than shutting off GPS for a while.

This whole topic strikes me of sour grapes because Kerry lost. You people will say anything (no matter how uninformed you are) to discredit the Bush administration. Maybe you could get Dan Rather to come up with some memos to support your wild claims.

 

[Sam Wormley]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Did you forget all commercial and private airline traffic was shut down after 9/11. We sure as hell didn't need GPS on the ground and we don't rely solely on it when in flight. God, I hope you don't think I would get lost flying from Pittsburgh to Denver if I didn't have GPS. We are a lot better equipped than that.

And you're wrong on the tankers, they do not rely solely on GPS. There will be no oil spills. You're speaking out of a total lack of knowledge.

This whole topic is blown way out of proportion. Compared to a nuclear device being set off in a highly populated area (say Manhattan), that would devastate this country far more than shutting off GPS for a while.

This whole topic strikes me of sour grapes because Kerry lost. You people will say anything (no matter how uninformed you are) to discredit the Bush administration. Maybe you could get Dan Rather to come up with some memos to support your wild claims.

Think of the impact on network timing, time dissemination, surveying, mining, robotic earth moving, asset management, parcel tracking, agriculture, fault monitoring, mapping, air traffic safety and even the majority of GPS receivers used by our troupes! Think about it! Shutting it off in time of crisis (or ever) make no sense what-so-ever.

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Being required to have other means of navigation on board doesn't mean that the usual means of navigation are not vital. Many two-engine planes can fly on one engine, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to shut down one engine.

But AFAIK GPS isn't allowed to be the primary means of navigation - it's only a navigation AID, commercial aircraft still need to use VOR/ILS to navigate, so turning off GPS would simply mean that they can't backcheck the radionavigation data anymore.

As for the other poster who worried about supertankers: Pilots help... and every captain of a large ship should be able to read a map.

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Think of the impact on network timing

NTP servers exist. Much easier to use than GPS, too...

time dissemination,

Can easily done by radio. I don't know about the US, but in Europe there's a long-wave radio station sending the time signal (Known as DCF77). Works great and is very reliable

surveying

REAL Surveyors don't need GPS, they can manage happily without. They'll simply use maps, sights and poles again like they did for over 2000 years.

mining

You get GPS signals in mineshafts? What receiver do you use?

SCNR ;-)

robotic earth moving

Not really in use THAT much, is it? Besides, they can simply stop paying for GPS use... oh, they don't pay? Then they can't expect any guarantees on uptime.

asset management

What kind of asset management needs GPS?

parcel tracking

All parcel tracking sites I've seen only tell "package was checked into warehouse XY", not a GPS-generated location, BICBW. I don't really see that as life-threatening, though - you don't NEED to know the exact location of a parcel, knowing that it's en route with driver XY should be enough for most purposes.

agriculture

Farmers can EASILY work without GPS. Sure, they can safe some money if they know that THIS spot needs a bit less fertilizer, but working without GPS they would still produce food.

fault monitoring

Geologists use DGPS anyway, they'd probably simply set up more DGPS stations and track the motion relative to those spots. Civilian GPS is way too inacurate for geological work, the signal drifts far more than most continents

mapping

See surveying. Map makers use satelite pictures and orient them based on known points located by surveyors - no real need for GPS. Besides, GPS wouldn't be shut down forever, and I guess we can live without making new maps for a couple of weeks...

air traffic safety

As has been mentioned before, air traffic safety doesn't depend on GPS.

and even the majority of GPS receivers used by our troupes!

Back when I was in the Army, basic training DID include map reading... but of course that was in ancient times, 11 years ago

Besides, if the military can't get military GPS receivers, it's their own fault...

Think about it! Shutting it off in time of crisis (or ever) make no sense what-so-ever.

Depends on what kind of crisis you're talking about. And of course GPS has the capability to turn the civilian signal of on a regional basis...

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Ivor Jones]

NTP servers exist. Much easier to use than GPS, too...

Can easily done by radio. I don't know about the US, but in Europe there's a long-wave radio station sending the time signal (Known as DCF77). Works great and is very reliable

Also MSF from Rugby (UK) on 60kHz. I have several clocks in the house synchronised to this. There is a similar system in the US but I don't recall its callsign or frequency. WWV..?

Ivor

 

[Joop van der Velden]

NTP servers exist. Much easier to use than GPS, too...

NTP is not going to help when synchonising 2 PABX's across a 100km 10Gbit fiber link.

And where do you think that main (stratum 1) NTP servers get their time from?

Can easily done by radio. I don't know about the US, but in Europe there's a long-wave radio station sending the time signal (Known as DCF77). Works great and is very reliable

DCF77 and similar long-wave radio systems produce time accurate in the milliseconds, GPS in nanoseconds. Not comparable.

 

[Sam Wormley]

Geologists use DGPS anyway, they'd probably simply set up more DGPS stations and track the motion relative to those spots. Civilian GPS is way too inacurate for geological work, the signal drifts far more than most continents

Wow DGPS without GPS, now why didn't I think of that!?!?

 

[Mxsmanic]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Did you forget all commercial and private airline traffic was shut down after 9/11. We sure as hell didn't need GPS on the ground and we don't rely solely on it when in flight. God, I hope you don't think I would get lost flying from Pittsburgh to Denver if I didn't have GPS. We are a lot better equipped than that.

If the good guys have all these alternate means of navigation, why wouldn't terrorists have the same? And if they have that, why shut down GPS?

Doesn't anyone ever think these ideas through?

This whole topic is blown way out of proportion. Compared to a nuclear device being set off in a highly populated area (say Manhattan), that would devastate this country far more than shutting off GPS for a while.

Either shutting off GPS has no effect on civilian navigation, in which case it sure won't have any effect on terrorist navigation, or shutting off GPS is disastrous for civilian navigation, in which case it is also disastrous for terrorist navigation.

Either way, shutting off GPS either has no effect, or a catastrophic effect.

 

[David L. Wilson]

....
Also MSF from Rugby (UK) on 60kHz. I have several clocks in the house synchronised to this. There is a similar system in the US but I don't recall its callsign or frequency. WWV..?

WWVB in the US (Colorado) on 60 kHz (same frequency as MSF). WWVB is at the same facility as WWV which does time on HF but WWVB broadcasts a different signal format.